Cover for No Agenda Show 1139: Mooch and Stoll
May 19th, 2019 • 2h 24m

1139: Mooch and Stoll

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0:00
[Music]
0:08
is no agenda Madame Curie right now
0:24
Norma no I'm on the move I'm John C de
0:27
bourree everybody yes yes welcome to
0:35
episode number 1139 of the best podcast
0:39
in the universe a special day actually
0:42
you know I've seen a lot of shows that
0:45
are starting to do new numbering
0:48
differently talking about destroy you
0:51
talk about C seasons and series and no
0:56
no you know it's like I know what I know
1:01
what you're thinking I'm thinking season
1:03
I'm thinking season 11 ladies and
1:05
gentlemen wow these guys are great I
1:08
need to do it I need to binge listen to
1:11
season 11 show number 39 or whatever it
1:15
is we'll think about it yeah yeah kind
1:19
of it makes it sound more broadcast
1:22
e-even maybe that's exactly the problem
1:24
with it we shouldn't try to sound more
1:26
broadcasting or podcast these yeah this
1:29
is true so well today is a big day
1:33
yeah you're getting married yes and so
1:36
we this is actually I had to I know it's
1:39
gonna be tough for anyone to imagine how
1:41
we can do this but we're doing a show
1:44
just before the wedding yes so like a
1:47
few minutes before the wedding we're
1:49
doing this and then you're gonna run
1:51
right to the wedding right after you we
1:53
close this and ship it yeah right and
1:55
once I say I do then I go back to upload
1:58
and do the RSS feed yeah like exactly so
2:04
what we have today for the dedicated
2:07
listeners is a couple of interviews that
2:10
I did
2:11
right one with Anthony scaramouche II
2:14
now wait hold on a second this is months
2:18
ago you did this isn't it yeah but it
2:21
was I knew wasn't gonna be used to the
2:23
wedding so I may get very evergreen II
2:25
so okay well evergreen e as in ho-hum or
2:29
just Gaetano it's very interesting stuff
2:31
a lot of personal stuff we go into an
2:34
actual discussion and for example of
2:36
Donald Trump's weight now but do you
2:40
talk about that scar mood does he have a
2:42
hot wife yeah he's got a hot wife in New
2:45
York we also talked about his restaurant
2:47
he has a restaurant did you know that no
2:50
but somehow it does not surprise me and
2:53
even better I'd like to know if I can go
2:55
there when visiting Manhattan and say
2:57
tell mooch it's a curry from No Agenda
3:00
[Music]
3:07
right so the interview I couldn't get
3:11
that leeway no we're gonna have a look
3:16
just over an hour discussion with the
3:18
Chris stole cliff I said Chris yes
3:24
astronomer you can go look at his TED
3:28
Talks if you want to see what he's like
3:31
he's very excitable and he's got a lot
3:34
of thoughts and I worked with him for
3:35
years back in the days of tech TV before
3:39
actually MSNBC I believe he was on that
3:42
he was on that operation for a while hmm
3:46
like anyway I've known if he lives
3:48
nearby and so I figured and I have
3:50
nobody's heard from him for a while so I
3:52
thought an interview with him because he
3:54
has a lot of interesting thoughts so
3:56
what did you talk about with him a
3:57
little more techie than then scaramouche
3:59
yeah about the play we talked about what
4:06
your pal professor Ted talks about
4:09
usually the plague of the Internet the
4:13
nice of social media the negative
4:16
aspects of computers in schools the
4:18
negative distance
4:20
the unintended consequences of
4:21
technology yes and so that's a
4:24
fascinating interview I think people
4:25
will enjoy it might as well get started
4:28
let's just go right to Anthony
4:31
scaramouche II we have here Anthony
4:35
scaramouche II who just finished a book
4:36
called Trump to blue collar president
4:39
and I will say at the beginning I've
4:41
read this book and I think it's I can
4:44
highly recommend it it is very
4:45
entertaining it's kind of a interesting
4:48
romp between Anthony's background and
4:53
Donald Trump's background and it was
4:56
very very well structured I liked it so
4:59
what drove you to anyway welcome to the
5:02
No Agenda show well John thanks for
5:04
inviting me on and I mean you joined my
5:06
mother as the only two people I know
5:08
that have read the book so I'm very
5:10
delighted to have met you over this
5:12
pockets but in all seriousness thank you
5:14
for the comments because I really tried
5:16
to structure it in a way where I thought
5:18
it would provide some entertainment but
5:20
also some sociological background of why
5:23
the president was able to gravitate so
5:25
many blue-collar people to his base and
5:28
to his agenda a couple of things about
5:30
the book I want to ask right away which
5:33
is I've read a lot of these types of
5:35
books written by Italians and yours is
5:40
probably the only one that doesn't have
5:41
a more of an emphasis on the cooking of
5:44
the grandma now you didn't read my first
5:47
book okay I mean I got all I got it all
5:50
I got it all out of my system and
5:51
goodbye Gordon Gekko talked about my my
5:54
Nana and their how she used to hit us
5:56
with the wooden spoon if we weren't
5:57
paying attention and if you if you if
5:59
you read a lot of books about Italians
6:01
that are my age they are all reminiscent
6:05
of the plastic covering on the furniture
6:08
in those people's homes okay my my
6:10
grandmother and grandfather had rugs
6:12
that were at plastic runners over them
6:15
and they I think my grandmother waited
6:17
until she was about 65 to take the
6:19
plastic off the couch I was an
6:21
uncomfortable 40 years of that couch man
6:23
yes in fact I recall that era personally
6:28
I remember seeing people that had
6:29
everything covered with plastic I said
6:31
what are you saving it for somebody else
6:33
right
6:33
you sound like me as I said in my Nana
6:36
what is it what it's all well I mean
6:38
it's gonna be in the next generation or
6:39
what so so are you the cook uh no I'm
6:44
actually an Italian mama's boy which
6:47
makes me the eater or not the cook you
6:49
know I'm the guy that dropped his
6:51
underwear right where I took it off and
6:54
my mother swooped him behind me and next
6:56
thing you know it was ironed and pressed
6:57
okay and so unfortunately that ended for
7:00
me in 1982 when I went to college and so
7:03
no I'm basically I'm very clean I
7:06
probably shower twice a day but I'm the
7:09
most disorganized train wreck because I
7:12
had an Italian mom and I'm an Italian
7:15
mama's boy you are a hedge-fund guy
7:19
correct and I want to just asks for just
7:23
the general listener can you describe
7:26
what that means what is what is running
7:28
a hedge fund entail now what we what I
7:31
think the public generally thinks is
7:32
just you just you just rake in lots of
7:35
money doing pretty much nothing yeah I
7:37
mean obviously that's you know there's a
7:39
lot of jealousy in the media so the
7:41
media wants to characterize it that way
7:42
but there's three trillion dollars in
7:44
our industry in terms of assets under
7:47
management for a reason we actually do a
7:48
pretty good job for people so you would
7:51
come to a hedge fund manager if you were
7:53
looking for like a high single digit
7:57
rate of return a seven eight nine
7:58
percent return with very low volatility
8:01
and relative consistency and so a lot of
8:05
people have money in the stock market
8:06
but there's a lot of volatility there
8:08
which saw ten percent correction in the
8:10
month of October 2018 as an example but
8:15
what a hedge fund manager if they're
8:16
doing their jobs right they generate a
8:18
high absolute return with low volatility
8:21
and so it takes a lot of work there's 60
8:24
people in my organization I started this
8:26
company with three people in 2005 we're
8:30
about to celebrate our fourteenth year
8:32
in business this coming March and we've
8:35
got about 10 billion dollars under
8:37
management and one of the things that we
8:38
tried to do is we tried to democratize
8:41
the industry and so I set up a structure
8:44
having gone to Harvard Law School and
8:46
understand
8:47
the security regs I set up a new
8:49
structure which has been replicated now
8:51
where we're able to have investors with
8:55
minimums of about $25,000 so I I've sort
8:58
of opened up the hedge fund investing to
9:00
the mass affluent I wrote a book about
9:03
this in 2012 called the little book of
9:06
hedge funds which was basically a primer
9:10
or an explanatory book on what people
9:13
should know about hedge funds the pastas
9:15
and the minuses for that matter so and
9:17
that was well received and we have about
9:19
41,000 clients over ten billion dollars
9:22
under management and you know one thing
9:25
about the president he made me as famous
9:27
as Melania and Ivanka I didn't have to I
9:29
didn't have to sleep with him or be his
9:30
daughter but he made me pretty famous
9:32
and so it's raised the profile of my
9:33
business which has been helpful
9:35
publicity is good yeah yeah I know
9:38
question and in my business certainly
9:39
because we've got good performance that
9:41
back up the publicity well you've been
9:43
on a lot of shows I mean you've been on
9:45
dr. Phil yep you did a thing for
9:49
Facebook yeah you went on Stephen
9:51
Colbert right after you were released
9:54
from the White House yep
9:57
what did you think of that experience
9:58
cuz I watched that episode and I thought
10:00
it was I thought they were rude to be
10:03
honest about it well I mean look they're
10:04
angry about the president they don't
10:06
like the president of their there
10:08
they're building a fanbase of anti-trump
10:11
stores so when I expressed the
10:14
willingness to go on the show after
10:15
Stephen was excoriating me during my
10:18
time inside the White House I think they
10:20
were all taken aback but I know how to
10:21
take incoming I was happy to go on and
10:23
give my point of view I was on Bill
10:26
Maher show this past weekend I've done
10:28
his show a few times again it's like
10:31
being a Yankee in Fenway Park or a
10:33
Dodger in Fenway Park you know it's a
10:36
rough place but I feel that we've got to
10:39
get back to talking to each other you
10:42
know we may not agree ideologically we
10:45
may see the country going in different
10:47
directions for different reasons but if
10:49
we don't talk to each other I think it's
10:51
a very big mistake I like to tell people
10:52
I'm a patriot first and I'm partisan
10:55
last I have a certain philosophical view
10:58
based on my years of explain
11:00
in business and my observation about
11:03
what works from a point of view of
11:05
policy about what I don't want to do is
11:07
ever close myself off to the other
11:09
person's point of view John John Kennedy
11:11
had a great line which I share with
11:13
everybody he said I spent a lot of time
11:15
understanding the other side because
11:17
there's obviously very smart people on
11:19
the other side and I may learn something
11:22
from them or conversely they may sharpen
11:25
and provide me with more ammunition for
11:28
my own argument and so we have to do
11:30
that in our society you get a perverse
11:32
thrill when you try to describe a
11:35
situation and Bill Maher and part of
11:38
that description entails somebody
11:40
getting all worked up and Bill Maher
11:42
actually goes kind of ballistic right in
11:44
front of you well I mean I can't tell
11:47
you I'm getting a throw because I'm
11:48
trying to explain something and you know
11:50
but they sometimes they have a hard time
11:52
they you know it's very emotionally
11:54
charged you know so but I think what I'm
11:57
able to do though is I'm able to detach
12:01
myself a little bit from the heat of the
12:04
argument and try to relate to people
12:07
where I think they really live is when
12:09
all the emotions die down where they
12:12
really live is in that common sense
12:14
altimeter where they can sense when
12:16
someone's speaking common sense as
12:19
opposed to spin or ideological pablum
12:23
and I like going on these shows because
12:26
you know I I experienced Washington I
12:28
felt everybody in Washington was on spin
12:30
cycle but most New Yorkers are on a
12:33
rinse cycle and so for me I can sit
12:35
there and you know I don't have any
12:37
prepared notes I don't have any sound
12:41
bites that I'm ready to spill out of my
12:44
mouth at a moment's notice and I'm just
12:46
trying to respond and interact with
12:48
somebody on an intellectual basis and
12:50
and hopefully you know if I'm not
12:53
winning them over at least I can explain
12:55
directionally why half the country feels
12:57
the way I do what do you think Trump's
13:01
top skills are he's got an unnatural
13:07
unnatural level of charisma unnatural it
13:11
has to do with the fact that
13:13
he has decided that he is going to be
13:16
completely uninhibited in a media
13:19
environment that's 45 years of doing
13:22
radio television public speaking signing
13:26
books writing books promoting his brands
13:31
he has a completely uninhibited approach
13:35
and again I'm not picking on these
13:37
people but let's go over the 17 other
13:39
candidates that were in that race that
13:41
we're running against them for the
13:42
Republican nomination you know they are
13:45
you know they've got the Millstone on
13:48
their necks of consultants speak the
13:50
Millstone on their necks of practiced
13:52
can't say certain things that could be
13:55
offensive and so he has that capability
13:59
he's got unbelievable political
14:02
instincts unbelievable and I write about
14:05
that in my book at the end of the day he
14:07
could have had ten political consultants
14:09
telling him to pick choice a but he felt
14:13
Joyce B was the right choice he would go
14:15
a choice B he had people telling him
14:17
listen you're not gonna win in Wisconsin
14:19
or uh or Michigan don't spend any time
14:21
there and don't spending time in
14:23
Pennsylvania that that states really not
14:25
purple it's been blue for 32 years don't
14:27
spend any time there and he looked at
14:29
that and said no there's an opportunity
14:31
there there's a vacuum of advocacy for
14:34
these blue-collar people you know the
14:36
the left spent their time focused on
14:39
listen a couple of dolphins got killed
14:42
from eating plastic straws absolute
14:44
tragedy I'm not trying to make light of
14:45
it but they spent their time focused on
14:48
that or the polar ice caps melting again
14:50
a disturbing fact and not trying to make
14:54
light of it but they left out of the
14:56
equation for at least a generation what
14:58
was going on in the middle class and the
15:00
lower middle class and whether you like
15:03
the president or not he saw that opening
15:05
and he did something that has to be
15:08
marveled at if you're a political
15:09
scientist he he hijacked the Republican
15:12
Party from the establishment Republicans
15:15
who hate his guts and then he reached
15:17
into the Democratic Party and he stole
15:19
their base and moved it over to the
15:20
Republicans so again you can hate him
15:22
but this guy's got incredible political
15:25
instincts and he's a showman
15:27
and by the way he's an entertainer don't
15:29
lose sight of that he's the entertainer
15:32
in chief he knows how to get a crowd
15:34
riled up he once said or somebody wrote
15:37
about him that he's the only guy that
15:39
can fill an arena without a musical
15:41
instrument right he just shows up he's
15:43
gonna say some crazy stuff that you you
15:46
at any moment it looks like there's
15:48
gonna be a car crash and he's out there
15:50
malla propagande talking and as usual is
15:53
a ninis and there's eight ten thousand
15:56
people waiting on line to get into the
15:58
overfilled capacity of that arena those
16:01
those are skills he's also a gregarious
16:03
guy you know the media will paint him
16:05
that's not being the case but when
16:07
you're in his presence he's a lot of fun
16:09
to be with
16:10
does he get a lot of sleep I actually
16:14
cannot figure that out I mean somebody
16:17
should examine this guy because he has a
16:20
supernatural capacity to not get sleep
16:23
and I'll just quote one of his doctors
16:25
he's the only human being that we've met
16:27
where his eating habits are not
16:29
affecting his health so I can't figure
16:31
that out either okay I I've had more
16:33
than one meal with him one interesting
16:35
one in the White House where he was
16:37
pounding down the beef wellington which
16:39
is like a filet mignon wrapped in this
16:41
bakery crust and he was again passed the
16:44
sauce over here passed more of that
16:46
gravy I like him in this grave he's
16:47
probably like five million calories you
16:49
know I mean but he pounds it down no
16:51
problem has unlimited amounts of energy
16:54
this is a guy that can do 11 campaign
16:57
stops in four days prior to an election
16:59
this is a guy that was speaking in
17:01
Altoona PA at 10:30 at night we were all
17:05
exhausted he gets back on the plane
17:07
wants to fly to Michigan do one more
17:08
campaign stop at 12:30 in the morning
17:11
that's him I don't know how he does it
17:13
but that's him and he's 72 buddy but
17:15
here's a lesson for your listeners this
17:17
podcast don't smoke and don't drink
17:20
which neither thing the president does
17:23
and you too can fly around on Air Force
17:26
One like a maniac what do you think he
17:30
weighs oh why you need me in trouble
17:32
this is like breaking news well how
17:35
about this had it not 239 as that
17:39
I mean I think his published weight is
17:41
239 I would take the over on that he'd
17:44
be mad at me for saying that I don't
17:45
know what he weighs but it's not 239 one
17:50
thing you would in so far his as his
17:52
skills are concerned something that you
17:54
kind of pointed out in the book which is
17:56
the skill of timing and this is related
18:01
to his doing the New York skating rink
18:04
yeah and it seems as though he was in
18:07
the right place at the right time or if
18:10
he was premature and trying to do
18:13
something he would come back at exactly
18:15
the right moment and kind of swoop in
18:17
and which is the way kind of felt he ran
18:19
for president no question it was a
18:22
timing night no question because he
18:24
looked at running for president in 88
18:25
pause I'd stopped he looked again for
18:29
running at president in 1993 and stopped
18:32
and then he took a very serious for Ray
18:35
in 2000 to potentially grab the
18:39
nomination of the Reform Party flew out
18:41
to LA he was practicing his negatives on
18:44
John McCain who we thought was going to
18:46
be the Republican nominee the first time
18:48
I heard the words I like my heroes
18:51
uncaptured were in an interview can go
18:54
back and google this he was being
18:56
interviewed in 2000 by Dan Rather for 60
18:59
minutes and he was testing that out
19:02
because he thought John McCain was going
19:04
to be the Republican nominee in 2000 he
19:06
abandoned that because his political
19:08
instincts correctly dictated that you're
19:10
not going to win the presidency in this
19:11
country from a third party and so he
19:14
stayed out of the fray really
19:16
contemplated a 2012 race did not want to
19:18
run against than a presidential
19:19
incumbent good instincts there because
19:22
very hard to defeat an incumbent unless
19:24
you have a disaster going on in the
19:26
economy and so we didn't have a if
19:28
anything we had a stable economy in 12
19:30
improving an economy very hard to beat a
19:33
sitting president so he waited it out
19:34
and then he struck the nerve of the
19:39
anxiety that's taking place in our
19:41
system related to the blue-collar
19:43
experience and the decline in living
19:45
standards and he went out there and
19:47
preached that mantra and that mantra by
19:51
the way is tied to immigration because
19:53
at
19:53
the illegal immigration has certainly
19:55
affected wage growth in our society and
19:59
he went out there and he made that case
20:01
and he made the case in a way that was
20:03
unbelievably unorthodox and even though
20:06
we were outspent almost two to one by
20:09
secretary Clinton's campaign and we were
20:11
out manned I would say almost
20:14
three-to-one by her he was able to
20:17
capture the presidency because he was
20:19
able to get his message out in the
20:21
American media in a way that was nothing
20:23
short of staggering it was billions and
20:26
billions of dollars of free media
20:29
whether they were televising a rally or
20:32
they were interviewing him or he was
20:34
calling into their shows he literally
20:37
was able to use the media as almost a
20:40
third arm of his campaign strategy do
20:44
you surf I don't but did you did you
20:47
catch that analogy about surfing in
20:50
there yeah I mean read this is what is
20:53
this doing in here he doesn't seem like
20:54
a surfer on I'm not a I'm not a surfer
20:57
but I can discern waves because you know
21:00
there's a contradict anomic system and
21:05
there are other waves Elliot wave theory
21:07
for investing and my point the metaphor
21:11
of the surfing for your listeners was I
21:13
really feel that these politicians are
21:15
surfers and they have to get on that
21:18
surfboard and ride a wave into Shore
21:22
that fits their personality as an
21:24
example Jeb Bush would have been a
21:26
phenomenal presidential candidate in the
21:28
early 90s to mid 90s wrong candidate for
21:32
2016 but a phenomenal guy Governor
21:35
Romney same sort of thing date their
21:37
personnel just too bland you were a
21:41
supporter of Romney and then you kind of
21:43
switched over to Jeb Bush before you
21:44
finally latched on to the Trump
21:46
bandwagon yes how did that happen well
21:50
because I didn't believe him you know I
21:52
write in the book that I'm sitting with
21:54
him the day after the apprentice ends
21:57
we're having breakfast in the Trump
21:59
Tower and he's telling me he's running
22:00
for president I'm laughing I'm like yeah
22:03
we weren't the only one doing that of
22:05
course and he said yeah every
22:07
I said to him he said you weren't
22:08
watching The Apprentice last night I
22:09
said no of course not he goes while you
22:11
were the only one that wasn't watching
22:12
it I was fantastic I'm sure you were but
22:16
he said well it's over now I'm running
22:17
I'm running for president I said no
22:19
you're not
22:19
he said no no I totally am I said let me
22:21
tell you some I said you're at 2 percent
22:22
in the polls you're not gonna run for
22:24
president because I'm at 2 percent in
22:25
the polls because people are like you ok
22:28
they think I'm not running but the
22:29
minute I start running I'm gonna shoot
22:31
to the top of the polls and I'm gonna
22:34
stay there until I win the presidency
22:35
and I gotta tell you you know at least
22:38
on the Republican side that's what he
22:39
did go take a look at those polling
22:40
numbers you know there was nobody in
22:44
shooting range yeah a couple of guys won
22:47
because of the party system and the
22:50
establishment they won a few primaries
22:51
against somebody very few and you know
22:54
he was right right at the top as it
22:56
related to the popular vote among
22:58
registered Republicans so I didn't see
23:00
it I admit that in the book I also
23:03
didn't see the level of economic
23:05
desperation despite the fact that grew
23:07
up in a blue-collar family I have spent
23:09
too much time with wealthy people and
23:11
and I have to confirm biases of running
23:15
my hedge fund and interacting with
23:16
wealthy people and so when I descended
23:19
into these towns with then-candidate
23:21
Trump I write in my book that it was
23:24
quite eye-opening what I saw in those
23:26
towns and the composite of what I saw is
23:29
that we went from a generation of
23:31
aspirational working-class families to
23:34
desperation 'el ones in about 35 years
23:37
and the public servants of the
23:39
established class didn't really see it
23:42
and if they saw it they were indifferent
23:44
to it and so he was able to capitalize
23:47
on that in a way that I think will be
23:49
viewed as historic well talking about
23:53
hanging out with the rich can you
23:55
explain to me and I'm from this area how
24:00
the richest guys in Silicon Valley many
24:02
billionaires has quite a few of them are
24:05
all Democrats
24:07
well I can't but I mean what I softened
24:10
think about there's a level of guilt and
24:13
there's a level of self-preservation
24:16
that's more important to some of these
24:18
people than actual public policy and so
24:20
ends up happening is they are sitting
24:24
there or a boatload of money they feel
24:25
very guilty about it and they feel that
24:27
they can be progressive or ultra liberal
24:31
and that'll give them a pass and that's
24:33
by and large been true from the American
24:35
media so if you're super rich but you're
24:38
liberal American media leaves you alone
24:40
if you're super rich but conservative
24:43
they burn you in effigy and they try to
24:45
demonize you and so you know to me I
24:47
think it's more of a self-preservation
24:48
thing than it is a principle base thing
24:51
because how'd you get the money you got
24:54
the money because we've set up a
24:55
market-based system in our society which
24:58
has led to incredible growth and
25:00
innovation and job creation and
25:02
unbelievable success for people and and
25:06
you know we we have a society that will
25:09
reward people for their ingenuity and
25:12
risk-taking you know you cannot
25:13
systematize despite what the left says
25:15
you're never gonna be able to
25:17
systematize an equal outcome we should
25:19
be way more focused from a policy
25:22
perspective on figuring out ways to
25:24
create more equal opportunity where our
25:27
educational system K through 12 the
25:29
public system is a failure it's broken
25:31
it's very uneven we should be spending
25:34
more time figuring out a way to get a
25:36
kid who's living in a less than affluent
25:40
neighborhood at give public school
25:41
education as opposed to trying to figure
25:44
out how to overtax people and and and
25:46
wealth redistribute it doesn't work it
25:49
slows down growth it slows down
25:50
opportunity and and it stunts the system
25:53
and if you don't believe me we have 150
25:55
years of document to history on this
25:57
throughout the world where people have
25:59
tried it when you first showed up at the
26:03
White House and then left 11 days later
26:07
my take on it was that well here they
26:10
brought this guy in as a hatchet man to
26:12
get rid of Rance Priebus and banna but
26:17
as I read the book it obviously was a
26:19
more convoluted road it wasn't as though
26:23
they just brought in you as a hatchet
26:25
man to get rid of Reince Priebus yeah
26:27
but death that's kind of what looks like
26:29
in hindsight I mean III definitely serve
26:32
that purpose there's no question about
26:33
that but
26:34
you know if you remember in the book I
26:36
was offered the OPL position yeah I
26:38
accepted that job pretty Basim Bannon
26:40
tried to block me from that job and then
26:43
I did something really really stupid I
26:45
mean it did many things stupid but the
26:46
biggest stupid thing I did was I put my
26:48
pride and my ego into trying to secure
26:53
that job
26:54
you see that's what I what let lets back
26:57
to the you mentioned a Bannon and
27:00
Priebus forming a coalition of bad guys
27:06
what you thought was peculiar because
27:08
they weren't similar characters by any
27:10
means and they wanted to block you from
27:13
that particular job why do you think
27:15
that was I mean did you have some sort
27:16
of a better in with Trump did you
27:20
because you knew a more person you know
27:22
knew him personally I or what was the
27:25
purpose of their trying to block you I
27:27
didn't they just let you go there and
27:29
then just you know leave her there yeah
27:31
I mean that would have been a better
27:32
strategy I think for all of us what if
27:34
they just left me alone I wasn't I I
27:35
think pre was probably figured I was
27:37
tight with the president and who knows
27:39
you know him and me together you know
27:42
remember previous was an establishment
27:43
guy he was flooding the zone inside the
27:46
White House with orange see people that
27:48
were not necessarily loyal to the
27:50
president but were you know more loyal
27:52
of Priebus and so I think he looked at
27:55
me and and for that matter not to take
27:57
it so personally to me he looked at guys
27:59
like Giuliani Chris Christie John
28:01
LaValle was a Suffolk County Chairman
28:03
out here on Long Island he looked at all
28:05
those people and said okay these are New
28:07
Yorkers I'm gonna do everything I can to
28:09
block these New Yorkers from coming down
28:11
here to Washington and so and he was
28:13
successful at doing that so he slow
28:15
rolled me and he slow rolled those guys
28:17
I was probably the only guy due to the
28:21
determination of my personality and the
28:23
persistence where I II was like a dog on
28:26
a bone I wouldn't let up until I found
28:30
my way through the door at the White
28:31
House and so you know and then once I
28:34
got the job
28:34
I probably mishandled it in a number of
28:37
different ways you probably shouldn't
28:38
start your first day at the White House
28:39
where the chainsaw and a hockey mask
28:42
from Jason's Friday the 13th movie you
28:44
know and once I started the chainsaw I
28:46
went
28:47
after those two guys with a vengeance
28:49
and I should have been more careful
28:50
about that
28:51
you go after Bannon in the book a little
28:54
bit not as much as you could it's a lot
28:56
of it's subtle and which brings me to
28:58
the question well that brings me to the
28:59
question if you claimed claim I don't
29:02
want to use that word claim because I
29:03
don't like it but you say you're you
29:05
were a class clown I'm a class clown or
29:10
he was a class guy
29:11
no you were a class clown yeah I was a
29:13
prankster in school no question about
29:15
that I had well I don't know I look I
29:19
had I had a reasonable hike IQ and I had
29:22
an okay work ethic I got serious once I
29:26
got to college which helped me get in a
29:27
Harvard Law School but you know I don't
29:30
know I I play for laughs there's no
29:32
question about that I have there's an
29:33
entertainment streak in my personality
29:35
you can see that there's some
29:37
irreverence in the book in terms of the
29:39
way I describe certain situations myself
29:42
included but I would say that bad and
29:44
you know that he was he was a guy when
29:47
he thought he needed you he was very
29:49
polite very seductive but he was a guy
29:52
when he didn't need you you were a
29:54
disposable piece of tissue and so all of
29:58
that stuff is coming back to roost on
30:00
Bannen now you know he's he's spits
30:03
arised okay and what do I mean by that
30:05
when Eliot Spitzer went down ten years
30:08
ago because he was so mean and nasty to
30:10
so many people there was nobody there to
30:13
save them and so he spits arised and now
30:16
he's going to rallies where five or ten
30:17
people are around them and you know he's
30:20
he's lost an element of his
30:22
self-proclaimed guru nature and and and
30:26
so look I me but for me I thought he's
30:28
just very dishonest he's an unbelievable
30:30
leaker if you look at what the president
30:33
said about him in the press release in
30:34
January of 2018 it was virtually
30:37
identical to what I was saying about him
30:40
unfortunately I got caught on a hot mic
30:42
which is fine but uh you know that the
30:44
journalists took it totally out of
30:46
context I he was trying to get me to do
30:49
a profile with him in his magazine and
30:51
I'm like not self-promotional like that
30:53
like Steve is and then I used an
30:55
inappropriate word and he said okay I've
30:57
hit the jackpot here let me run this
30:59
over to CNN and
31:00
exaggerate what happened so that's fine
31:03
I'm a big boy I paid the price with my
31:05
job I write about it honestly in the
31:08
book I'm very accountable for the
31:09
mistake folks see you don't write about
31:11
it I don't think you're necessarily as
31:15
firm as you could have been I mean that
31:17
was a chickenshit thing that happened
31:19
from a journalist perspective why
31:24
Howie Kurtz said in 40 years in
31:26
Washington he's never seen a journalist
31:28
do that to a governmental official so
31:31
but you know that's okay there's a first
31:32
time for everything
31:33
I made the mistake by talking to the guy
31:36
right so I mean I have to own that
31:38
shouldn't have talked to him back back
31:40
to Bannon yeah early in the book you say
31:44
that Steve ban and you compare him to a
31:47
blood sucking vampire bat yeah yeah and
31:52
when later in the book you have this
31:53
sense which is the only thing I've
31:54
actually excerpted for this interview
31:57
because I thought it was it was pretty
31:58
funny because it was subtle it was like
32:01
it was it was kind of literate but at
32:05
the same time rude active leaking
32:08
addiction never ends well bannon's sure
32:11
didn't remember how he looked leaving
32:14
the White House a harvard-educated cuck
32:17
draped in contemporary hobo yeah that's
32:22
pretty good though right
32:23
I thought it was quite good I think it
32:25
was you you actually put some thought
32:27
into it yeah he wrote the book around
32:30
that yeah couple of sentences yeah he's
32:31
a cook he's ultimately a cook at the end
32:34
of the day went to Harvard Business
32:35
School he worked at Goldman Sachs he was
32:37
in Hollywood
32:38
I mean he's hit the triangulation of
32:41
every one of those nexuses and then he
32:43
tries to pretend that he's some outsider
32:47
that's focused on ethnocentrism and
32:50
white nationalism I mean III think the
32:52
guys are an incredibly flawed guy but
32:55
wickedly smart and very well-read III
32:57
I made a joke at one of the college
32:59
campuses that you know if you ever are
33:02
doubting God or if you falling into the
33:05
trap of atheism just remember this as
33:08
seductive and as smart as Steve Bannon
33:10
is God made him so ugly and made him
33:13
dress so in a
33:14
propria that his ideas will never be
33:17
taken seriously thankfully by the
33:18
civilization so so to me he's not my cup
33:22
of tea I've offered to debate Steve
33:24
Bannon I've offered to debate
33:26
Reince Priebus any place anywhere and
33:29
I'll continue to wait on that you you
33:30
you it I think you know who he is I was
33:32
on his radio show he said that he's in
33:34
love with Reince Priebus is one of his
33:36
best friends it's no great invite
33:37
Wright's previous on your radio show
33:39
with me let's have an honest and candid
33:42
conversation about what he's really like
33:44
with the people that he work with inside
33:46
the White House
33:47
you think that'll happen my brother okay
33:50
uh hell hell will freeze over before
33:52
that happens well I there's no reason
33:54
for him to want to do that where is
33:56
Rance Priebus now I don't even know I
33:59
apparently I think he went back to his
34:00
Wisconsin law firm and I think he's
34:02
keeping a low profile because you know I
34:05
mean he perked up a lot of people I mean
34:07
it's not forget about just me he just
34:10
burned up a lot of people and so he
34:12
exposed his full-blown insecurity in
34:14
that job and he explodes what exposed
34:16
his levels of low self esteem and low
34:20
self confidence
34:21
hey players go out and try to hire eight
34:24
plus people see players like a guy like
34:27
him they'll hire D's and F's why did
34:31
Trump hire him well I think Trump felt
34:34
that he had yet helped him with the
34:37
apparatus and technology around the RNC
34:40
and I think Trump felt a level of
34:42
loyalty and Trump also felt that if he
34:44
had him in the White House he was tight
34:47
with Paul Ryan and he was a member of
34:49
that Washington sediment that he could
34:52
help him drain the swamp but what the
34:56
mistake that the president made is that
34:57
he put a cesspool operator in the most
35:01
important job in the system and so all
35:02
that guy was doing was pouring more
35:04
sewage into the system you're not you're
35:06
not gonna drain the swamp by bringing a
35:09
cesspool operator that's lived in the
35:11
swamp for 15 years in to drain the swamp
35:14
they're not going to do it they their
35:16
goal is to outlast you and to continue
35:18
to work the lobbying and currying of
35:21
favor business inside of Washington to
35:24
line their own pockets they're not
35:25
they're not there to serve the American
35:27
people
35:27
American people are onto that thing the
35:29
American people know that one of the
35:31
biggest reasons they had to get me out
35:32
of there I don't know if you saw my
35:33
first press conference but the my the
35:36
critics of my first press convert honest
35:39
can't you can't talk the truth like that
35:41
from the White House Pro podium what are
35:43
you nuts
35:44
and and that's an America the American
35:47
people know it that you know one thing
35:48
that the president has done for the
35:50
society is he's fully exposed the
35:54
cockroaches that live in the kitchen
35:55
known as Washington okay the lights are
35:57
on now they're crawling around stunned
35:59
that they're being caught with all their
36:03
nonsense we'll talk it well in the
36:05
subject of cockroaches do you think the
36:07
White House was bugged I don't know I
36:13
would I gotta believe no but I will say
36:19
this they dismantled the Oval Office in
36:21
August of 2017 and rebuilt it and so I'm
36:27
hoping that the answer is no I don't
36:29
know the answer it just seems like a lot
36:33
of the stories that the media was
36:35
picking up on always predate the moment
36:38
that the Oval Office was reconstructed
36:43
just coincidence maybe not sure
36:45
coincidence but it's also previous in
36:47
Bannen there were 60 to 70% of the leaks
36:49
once they were removed the leaks really
36:51
did go down dramatically still leaking
36:53
every White House is gonna leak but it's
36:55
not not leaking with that level of
36:58
animosity and that level of venom
37:01
towards each other you know that that's
37:03
gone down a lot you what do you think of
37:08
the New York Times hit piece on Trump
37:10
which if you read in great detail does
37:13
the recent one work Trump apparently
37:15
never had any money to begin with and it
37:17
was pretty much financed by his father
37:18
Fred and if you read between the lines
37:20
it kind of implies against all logic
37:24
that Fred Trump was a multi billionaire
37:28
that could just throw tons of money at
37:30
his son yeah I mean listen I've seen the
37:34
documentary active measures apparently
37:38
he's a puppet of Vladimir Putin
37:41
and now he made you know he just
37:42
siphoned all the money off from his dad
37:44
illegally and you know I've heard all of
37:48
these different things but if you really
37:50
look closely at the article whatever
37:53
happened there between him and his dad
37:54
it was clearly inside of the seam of the
37:59
tax code and I took taxation in law
38:03
school there's a very famous decision
38:06
that the name of the justice is justice
38:08
Lerner hand you could Google the
38:11
decision it's about what you're allowed
38:13
to do and not allowed to do as a relates
38:15
to the tax code and and and justice Han
38:18
basically says you can be aggressive as
38:20
long as you're inside the seam of the
38:22
code and so I think that they're
38:24
stretching things a little bit in that
38:26
story I don't know if the president got
38:29
a million dollars from his father to
38:31
start his business or 413 million
38:34
dollars to start his business but I it
38:37
doesn't really matter to the average
38:38
American I think that's the point the
38:40
average American views him as a very
38:42
successful guy he was successful in real
38:45
estate he had a rise and fall which I
38:47
described in the book and then he rose
38:49
again so there's a level of force and
38:52
determination in his personality he went
38:54
on to become a television star I don't
38:56
think anybody can take that away from
38:57
him and then from the process of being a
39:00
television star he switched over to
39:02
American politics and in 17 short months
39:05
became the American president so you
39:08
know I'd like to think that given the
39:09
high-profile nature of the president's
39:12
life over the last 40 years if he was
39:14
really doing something aggressively
39:16
nefarious as what is being described
39:19
he's such a high profile target for a DA
39:22
that wants to be the mayor or the
39:24
governor they they would have gone at
39:26
after him with a vengeance so I put
39:29
about the same level of weight on that
39:32
story as most Americans do which is you
39:35
know moving on I I think that's probably
39:37
what the reaction was but it was
39:40
followed up then by an anonymous op-ed
39:43
which was rare written by some supposed
39:47
insider in the White House do you think
39:49
that was an insider in the White House
39:51
you think yeah what do you what's your
39:52
take on that and who you think it might
39:54
be so you know
39:55
I got an 11-day PhD in Washington
39:58
scumbag er II okay so I can tell you
40:01
that there's no way a senior guy would
40:04
have written that and so what they would
40:05
have used it they cut out they would
40:07
have gotten one of the junior guys to
40:09
write that and put it in there and so
40:11
what that is is that's a that's a
40:14
cockroach survival note and so the the
40:18
chef is in the kitchen he's gonna be
40:19
here for four to eight years but my
40:22
fellow cockroaches I'm gonna survive him
40:24
and so will you and when I return back
40:27
the cockroach land after serving this
40:29
guy I want you not to treat me poorly
40:32
and that and that's basically what that
40:34
was that was a to me it was the most
40:36
dishonest and most disloyal thing you're
40:39
serving the elected president of the
40:42
United States the leader of the free
40:44
world you may not like him but if you
40:47
don't like him and you don't like his
40:49
policies then leave I just think that
40:52
that was the most dishonest most
40:54
disingenuous thing and again another
40:57
example of why the American people
40:58
actually hate the swamp and they hate
41:00
every aspect of the swamp what's the New
41:04
York Times grudge against Trump he has
41:08
been right and they have been wrong
41:10
that's the that's the grudge they they
41:14
had a circular two years ago they had a
41:17
seven or eight page circular on the case
41:21
against Donald Trump and it wasn't just
41:24
an editorial it was like an eight page
41:26
circular that they inserted into the
41:29
newspaper and and then they had to
41:32
apologize to him after the election they
41:34
had to apologize to him do you follow
41:36
you follow what I'm saying
41:37
so yeah I mean this was the form of the
41:40
apology well the apology was we were too
41:43
bellicose with our rhetoric we were too
41:45
negative I mean they've ramped it up
41:48
subsequent to that but I'm just saying
41:50
that that the New York Times is they
41:55
don't like the president's policies they
41:56
don't like the president's personality
41:58
and they don't like the fact that
41:59
presidents winning and they've been on
42:01
the losing side of the argument for the
42:02
last 36 months so so they're gonna
42:05
continue to be in that camp and he's
42:07
done a masterful job
42:08
of getting these left-leaning media
42:11
establishments to hate his guts he has
42:14
figured out by throwing Molotov
42:17
cocktails or puffery or exaggerating
42:20
statements they're gonna act like Hall
42:22
monitors fact-checking him and the whole
42:26
you know Charlie Brown teacher
42:29
wah-wah you know that's what they're
42:31
doing on their television shows and he's
42:33
laughing he's laughing he knows that
42:37
he's got them totally distracted and as
42:40
John Stewart said the other day that he
42:43
has figured out that he may be a
42:45
narcissist but they're as narcissistic
42:46
as him and and he's made it about them
42:49
and they love talking about them on
42:51
their shows and so that was a masterful
42:55
thing that he's done so far master well
42:58
you liked stones movie Wall Street I did
43:04
mention this in the book I did but you
43:06
didn't mention the wolf of Wall Street I
43:08
would like to know I mean Wall Street is
43:11
the Gordon Gecko movie for anyone
43:13
doesn't remember it but your greed is
43:15
good and all those sorts of cliches and
43:19
the wolf of Wall Street of course was
43:21
more about the excesses what do you what
43:24
and you're in the business so how do you
43:26
think about comparing those two movies
43:28
what do you think of the wolf of Wall
43:29
Street well you know the reason I like
43:31
the Wall Street movie is that I was a
43:33
young man I was in my mid-20s when that
43:36
movie came out it was 23 or 24 and I was
43:40
aspiring to go to Wall Street and so
43:42
even though it was a cautionary tale
43:44
about greed and excess I thought it was
43:47
well presented and Michael Douglas won
43:49
the Academy Award for it and in the
43:52
second movie Oliver Stone came to me and
43:55
gave me the opportunity to play myself
43:56
in the movie and so there's pictures of
43:59
me in my office here with Josh Brolin
44:01
and and Michael Douglas with my kids and
44:04
so I learned a lot about the artistic
44:08
interpretation of Wall Street and I my
44:11
first book was called goodbye Gordon
44:13
Gekko how to find your fortune without
44:15
losing your soul and basically it was a
44:17
it was titled that way to talk about the
44:19
fact that greed actually isn't good and
44:21
you have to take a long term
44:22
approach the things in the world of
44:24
financial services and so I I'm fond of
44:27
that movie for those sentimental reasons
44:29
um I was asked to be in the wolf of Wall
44:33
Street I have a good relationship with
44:35
Leo DiCaprio and Bo Dietl who played one
44:39
of the roles in the movie and I elected
44:41
not to be in that movie because that
44:43
movie was not about an interpretation
44:46
there was a FactSet related to this guy
44:49
Jordan Belfort where he literally did
44:52
everything that you're not supposed to
44:54
do as a money manager he fleeced the
44:56
people he sold them things that were
45:00
literally dreams pipe dreams and he did
45:03
many many illegal things and so for me
45:06
I'm not saying there isn't a darker side
45:09
to Wall Street there clearly is I
45:10
believe there's a darker side to
45:12
journalism there's a darker side to
45:14
medicine unfortunately we're human
45:17
beings and and darkness lives in a lot
45:20
of different sectors of the economy but
45:22
I was not a supporter of that movie
45:25
because one of the problems with a movie
45:27
like that because it is factual
45:28
it's it's back to that cliche that one
45:31
bad apple could spoil the whole basket
45:33
of apples and so to me you know I've had
45:35
my 30th year on Wall Street but for my
45:38
brief interregnum at the White House and
45:42
by and large we've tried to do a good
45:44
job the reason why we're running ten
45:45
billion dollars is we have a good track
45:47
record and we're honest people so that's
45:49
the reason why I compare and contrast
45:51
the two things
45:53
in the early days you were supporter of
45:55
Obama in some way cuz you raised money
45:58
for him after you met him at the
46:00
University Club yep why I had gone to
46:03
school with him I can't honestly say we
46:06
were close friends in school or anything
46:07
like that but I had a lot of friends of
46:09
mine at Harvard Law School that were
46:11
friends with him I was less involved
46:15
with politics at that time I was a
46:17
right-of-center person and I'm recently
46:20
far-left on social issues I believe
46:22
people should be able to express I don't
46:24
think life liberty and the pursuit of
46:26
happiness is only for straight people I
46:28
think that everyone should have that
46:29
opportunity and so when he presented
46:32
himself I said okay that seems like you
46:34
know you guys like them you know
46:36
personally and I said to myself
46:37
rhetorically how many times in my life
46:39
am I gonna know somebody that's actually
46:42
running for president and could possibly
46:44
be the president little did I know that
46:46
that would that wouldn't be the first
46:47
time you know and ended up working in
46:50
the White House for a short period but
46:51
but you know when he started becoming
46:54
more progressively left to riven on the
46:57
economy and more progressively left
46:59
driven on business I sort of returned to
47:02
my Republican roots but I do like the
47:04
president I like President Obama had a
47:05
lot of respect for him in his life he's
47:07
the Jackie Robinson of American politics
47:09
and we may not agree on everything
47:12
related to the the business side of
47:14
things or the economy but I am happy
47:17
with the social progress that was
47:19
created during his administration you
47:21
used the phrase he slam-dunked you in
47:24
the book maybe twice yeah
47:27
and it's it was even in context I can't
47:30
figure out what you're talking about
47:31
well I was on a I was on a television
47:34
show with him in 2010 it was at the CNBC
47:38
townhall public life at the Newseum down
47:43
the block on Pennsylvania Avenue and he
47:45
came in there and they were interviewing
47:46
him and I was audience participant I
47:50
asked him a question I said mr.
47:53
president nice to see again we
47:55
reacquainted ourselves and then I said
47:57
when are you gonna stop whacking Wall
48:00
Street with a pinata stick so the first
48:03
thing is if you're an italian-american
48:04
don't use the word whack on live TV in
48:06
front of the president I think that was
48:07
mistake number one and the mistake
48:09
number two is you know he was adamant
48:12
that Walsh it was a big cause of the
48:13
financial crisis and so he came back at
48:16
me very hard and of course he's the
48:19
president I'm not I didn't get a chance
48:20
to rebut him and so he metaphorically
48:23
slam-dunked me on that live television
48:25
show so much so that Jon Stewart that
48:29
night on Comedy Central Lampoon me to
48:31
the great delight of my teenage children
48:34
at that time what do you say Jon Stewart
48:39
basically I know what it did bama's Oh
48:41
what did Obama say Obama said that I was
48:45
wrong about him hitting wall street with
48:47
a pinata stick and that wall she was the
48:49
real
48:49
cause of the problem of the crisis and
48:51
that the greed on Wall Street had
48:54
overcome wisdom and it was a pretty
48:56
heavy healthy invective at our industry
49:01
not necessarily me personally but he
49:05
came back very hard at that at that
49:09
question and and in hindsight I was
49:11
trying to lobby in a softball I thought
49:13
he was gonna say well there's definitely
49:14
a nexus between Wall Street and in Main
49:17
Street and we have to keep that harmony
49:19
but he was not hearing it you know that
49:21
was playing on you exactly right and by
49:23
the way that was a month or so before
49:25
the 2010 midterms and so being a
49:29
politician he was like a dog with a bone
49:30
and he was he was going at that thing
49:32
very hard you can do this thing called a
49:35
salt salt conference which is a
49:37
gathering of I think had fun hedge fund
49:41
folk yeah you book Bill Clinton once I
49:45
did I booked President Clinton I've had
49:48
John Brennan I've had Joe Vice President
49:50
Joe Biden I've had James Carville I've
49:57
had Donna Brazile III but of course I've
50:00
had Governor Romney George Walker Bush
50:02
Tony Blair I really tried to make the
50:05
salt conference and all party all
50:08
ideological experience I'm not looking
50:11
to make it a conservative conference
50:15
event or anything like that I may have
50:16
certain conservative ideas but I also
50:19
brought the human rights campaign guys
50:21
who were working on the legalization of
50:23
gay marriage in the US and you know I'm
50:27
a believer in that so you know I I'm I I
50:29
mean I guess the one of the main reasons
50:31
I could never run for office the fact
50:33
that No thank God it would like to keep
50:36
my family together and stay married but
50:37
another reason is I don't fit
50:39
ideologically in either one of these
50:41
parties you know I'm asked about the
50:43
Clinton thing cuz I was wondering if you
50:45
recall what his speaking fee was at that
50:48
time it was a lot less that it is now I
50:52
think he's two and a quarter now he was
50:54
probably one and a quarter 150 back then
50:57
remember that's almost 10 years ago
50:59
though that's a million five hundred
51:01
thousand no I'm sorry
51:03
50 US thousand oh honey I know he's
51:06
probably 225 thousand today those are
51:10
probably that's not up that's not me
51:12
breaking any rules of confidentiality
51:13
those were public well you don't I know
51:16
this I then I've been represented by a
51:21
number of speakers girls and I know what
51:22
the what the rules are and if you want a
51:28
book bill if you want to find out Bill
51:29
Clinton speaking fee creates some sort
51:31
of a function and then call one of them
51:33
asking what it cost to get him and
51:34
you'll get that number I think that says
51:36
I think that's his going rate right
51:38
around now I'd bother he did a very good
51:40
job he was articulate and thoughtful and
51:43
he answered questions and again you know
51:48
you may not agree with everything that
51:50
he has to say and there may be elements
51:51
of what he had to say related to the
51:54
economic stewardship of the 1990s under
51:57
his watch but you know at the end of the
52:00
day um I think it's a valuable voice you
52:04
know I would I would as an example I
52:06
don't know if he would ever be available
52:08
for this but I would be interested in
52:09
booking President Obama no problem and
52:12
of course at some point President Trump
52:13
I'm I am thinking he's gonna be
52:17
available okay well have to see sure I'm
52:19
sure to be a lot of dough though that'll
52:21
be another consideration for me can you
52:24
explain the Trump Cruz relationship um
52:28
no I actually can't I mean I don't think
52:31
anybody can but I can I can offer up
52:33
some some things about life and the
52:38
political expediency I think that the
52:41
the scarring and the battering in terms
52:46
of the way these guys went at each other
52:47
in 2016 has been subordinated to
52:51
political survivorship and the
52:53
presidents need to have somebody that's
52:55
right leaning in a red state and keep
52:59
the red state red and so they've
53:01
subordinated some of their personal
53:04
invective towards each other and it goes
53:07
back to that age-old adage that politics
53:09
makes strange bedfellows so you could
53:12
read what they've said about each other
53:14
and you would say okay those guys
53:17
probably not gonna be talking to each
53:18
other anytime soon but yet they had a
53:19
rally where there were tens of thousands
53:22
of people at the rally in Houston so
53:24
it's gonna be close but I do think Ted
53:27
senator Cruz wins in Texas if you look
53:29
at the latest polling you have a
53:32
publicist I have a PR person for
53:36
skybridge I had a publicist coming out
53:39
of the White House because I thought I
53:42
needed somebody to bounce some ideas off
53:44
of in terms of how I was gonna recover
53:46
from that media excoriation but that was
53:49
more of like a crisis management person
53:51
than anything else you mentioned you
53:53
have a restaurant yeah what is it what's
53:56
it called yeah so I have a restaurant on
53:58
44th Street called the hunt and fish
54:00
club if you know anything about the
54:02
Mafia I named it after John Gotti social
54:04
club he used to call it the Bergen
54:05
County hunt and fish club so I figured
54:07
if they're gonna stereotype me in our
54:09
civilization why not why not put it want
54:12
to put that on my restaurant so it's a
54:14
great steeped steak and seafood place
54:16
it's located in the theater district on
54:18
up West 44th Street 125 West 44th
54:21
Street's got great ratings very strong
54:24
clientele it's a beautiful setting and
54:27
pursuant to the free market a market
54:30
based economics I made the chef an owner
54:32
of the place because he's that good
54:34
always a good idea amen right can I gain
54:39
a bunch of people and if you just give
54:41
me a quick response because we're
54:42
getting near the end here yeah sure
54:44
I just tell me what you think of um kind
54:47
of I think we already know what you
54:49
think of Priebus and Bannen yeah Kelly
54:53
and Conway nice person very loyal to the
54:57
president
54:58
great messenger I think she clearly
55:01
helped him win the presidency 52% of the
55:04
white women voters voted for President
55:07
Trump and I think you could really point
55:09
to her as being one of the reasons why I
55:13
used to follow Kelly and Conway before
55:16
she was Kelly and Conway in the 90s
55:18
mm-hmm and she was one of the sharpest
55:20
twits on on talk talk shows no no
55:24
question very impressive very impressive
55:25
person Jared Kushner
55:29
super-smart he's shifted into a down
55:33
gear to be a little bit less
55:34
high-profile because of the flack that
55:38
he was taking from John Kelly but I
55:41
think he was very instrumental in the
55:43
the renegotiation of NAFTA and I think
55:46
he's helping the President on the China
55:47
trade issue as well and I mean he's
55:50
obviously very loyal very smart guy John
55:53
Kelly
55:54
you know I applaud his service the
55:57
United States 40 years in the Marine
55:59
Corps he also lost his child who's a
56:02
gold star family member and so I applaud
56:05
him for his record in the military but
56:08
he's just in my opinion as I expressed
56:10
in my book he's just not well suited his
56:12
management style and the militancy of
56:15
his management style is not well suited
56:17
for a civilian organization and I think
56:19
he's hurt the morale inside the White
56:21
House in the book you say he hates Trump
56:23
oh there's no question about that I mean
56:25
I don't I don't think anybody believes
56:28
that he likes him he's made it clearer
56:31
to people outside the doors of the West
56:34
Wing know so it's not like I'm saying
56:37
something that isn't true Ivanka a
56:41
ridiculously smart gifted person great
56:45
public speaker obviously she's got some
56:48
elegance and class to her style and
56:51
personality and I think she's invaluable
56:54
to the president that she's helped him
56:56
in so many different ways minuchin
57:00
extremely competent a very cautious guy
57:04
has done a good job of pushing through
57:07
the tax reform and other regulatory
57:10
reform and extraordinarily bright and
57:14
again he's an unsung hero of the Trump
57:17
campaign because he was the fundraising
57:20
chair and he did a great job on the
57:21
fundraising side general Flynn American
57:25
Hero I think he got treated badly I'll
57:29
just echo what President Trump said I
57:31
don't know all of the facts of the case
57:34
but I think he's he's a guy like a great
57:37
deal I hold him a very high personal
57:38
regard and I hope him and his family
57:40
okay the writer Michael Wolfe is total
57:45
liar and fabricator and just this honest
57:50
representation so he would be like the
57:52
Jordan Belfort of journalism you know he
57:54
would be like the guy if you're an
57:56
honest journalist you'd look at your
57:58
look at a guy like him and shake your
57:59
head very dishonest guy Sean Hannity
58:03
he's one of my best friends you know we
58:06
grew up very similarly on Long Island
58:08
obviously he endorsed the front cover of
58:10
my book and the back cover for that
58:11
matter and he's a fighter Sean Hannity's
58:15
a street fighter and so when I wake up
58:17
in the morning I say man I got to get to
58:19
work because I know Sean's working three
58:20
times harder than me Mueller don't know
58:24
him he's got an impeccable reputation
58:26
and I do believe that whatever process
58:29
is going on there I think he will treat
58:32
people fairly that's just based on
58:34
reputation don't know him personally
58:35
call me just you know again don't know
58:39
him personally but seems very
58:41
sanctimonious he's another guy would
58:43
love to debate because I read through
58:45
his book I can't tell you honestly read
58:46
the entire thing but there's a lot of
58:48
sanctimony there and there's a lot of
58:50
righteousness and no one is that
58:53
infallible so you know when you look
58:56
through my book you'll see that I'm
58:57
citing a lot of my mistakes and missteps
59:00
in life and things I wish I could have
59:01
done better and so I just think there's
59:04
a lot of sanctimony and in commis book
59:06
and and you know it's that it's just too
59:10
in disingenuous for me George
59:12
papadopolis don't know him he probably
59:16
got set up that's what it feels like and
59:20
I think the court system knew that which
59:21
is why they gave him such a lenient
59:23
sentence Don junior very good guy super
59:28
loyal to his dad down-to-earth it's
59:31
great campaigner I've got a great
59:33
message out there I campaigned with Don
59:35
in the month of September throughout
59:37
Pennsylvania and Don is a very high
59:40
quality guy Eric I don't know Eric as
59:44
well
59:45
we've generally interacted briefly some
59:48
times on the campaign and sometimes I
59:49
enjoin television appearances
59:52
but it comes like he comes across
59:53
incredibly articulate and hope Hicks
59:57
well hope and I were very close on the
1:00:00
campaign work super hard on the campaign
1:00:03
and she's incredibly loyal to the family
1:00:06
and to the president she's got a great
1:00:08
new job now and I don't think anyone's
1:00:11
ever saying bad about hope Hicks super
1:00:13
super person Omarosa you know Amoroso
1:00:18
bizarrely even though she said I cried
1:00:20
like a little girl when I got fired
1:00:21
which I'll let your listeners determine
1:00:25
whether or not I actually cried like a
1:00:26
little girl and I got fired I like her
1:00:29
you know so I mean my attitude is
1:00:30
Amoroso came from nowhere and I don't
1:00:34
think you should be firing a person like
1:00:36
Amoroso after she worked for the
1:00:37
president from for 14 years on and off
1:00:40
by sticking her in the Situation Room
1:00:42
and leaving her there for two hours I
1:00:43
don't think that's the right way to fire
1:00:45
somebody like her so so I'm not
1:00:47
surprised at the current vitriol that's
1:00:50
going on in the Trump Moroso
1:00:53
relationship I predict a I come back I
1:00:58
do I do I particularly figure that horse
1:01:01
Scott Walker a very solid guy he's got a
1:01:03
tough race in Wisconsin did a good job
1:01:05
for the state always found Scott to be
1:01:08
one of the more honest politicians you
1:01:11
know he was often he was friends with
1:01:13
previs and when I called Scott explained
1:01:15
to him what previous was doing at me he
1:01:16
was scratching his head he said this is
1:01:18
just nonsense it wasn't good long term
1:01:20
strategy on previous bar dr. Phil a
1:01:25
great guy I went on there with my wife
1:01:28
my wife and I were on the verge of
1:01:29
divorce some of it was personal wasn't
1:01:32
just political as it's been reported but
1:01:35
we love each other trying to patch it up
1:01:36
and dr. Phil and Tony Robbins are
1:01:40
friends of mine and I have to tell you
1:01:42
they were instrumental and help me keep
1:01:43
my family together so I love those two
1:01:46
guys Schumer I've always had a good
1:01:49
relationship with Senator Schumer and
1:01:51
and fully disclose to you that I have
1:01:53
been one of his donors he's always been
1:01:56
good to me and he had a funny line he
1:01:59
may not even remember this but he said
1:02:00
we thought you were so good at your
1:02:02
press conference we were looking for
1:02:03
ways to kill you he said but the
1:02:04
Republicans killed you before we could
1:02:06
get
1:02:06
you I thought that was very funny very
1:02:08
oh yes it's cute yeah
1:02:09
Pelosi so believe it or not I've
1:02:12
actually interacted with her her her
1:02:14
daughter is an award-winning
1:02:16
documentarian and so I don't believe in
1:02:19
her political views but I do have a
1:02:22
respect for her belief in her political
1:02:25
views and she's always been gracious to
1:02:28
me
1:02:31
how about Duncan Hunter do you run into
1:02:34
him ever I haven't so I don't really
1:02:35
can't really comment on him I'm a knight
1:02:38
from the paper but I really know in your
1:02:40
book you do mention some people I've
1:02:41
never heard of yeah got and I think I
1:02:43
didn't hear of Hope Hicks right away
1:02:45
either because the nobody's ever done a
1:02:48
a good flow chart of White House right
1:02:50
it would be nice if someone did just a
1:02:53
hint it for anyone mmm-hmm Rona Graff
1:02:56
and Johnny McEntee who are these people
1:02:59
so Rona Graff has been the president's
1:03:01
assistant she stayed at Trump Tower and
1:03:03
the Trump Organization but for probably
1:03:05
25 30 years she's been his personal
1:03:08
secretary enormous ly talented person
1:03:11
and a great person and Johnny McEntee
1:03:14
was the president's body guy throughout
1:03:16
the campaign and he's now working on the
1:03:19
reelection but he's a terrific guy young
1:03:22
kid very very smart and was there from
1:03:25
the inception what about John Brennan so
1:03:30
John I know he's spoken at our salt
1:03:32
conference you know I have a lot of
1:03:34
respect for John I know the president's
1:03:37
sword him and John sword the president
1:03:39
but I'll remind your listeners that he's
1:03:42
been at a pivot point in all of the
1:03:46
security related to anti terrorism since
1:03:50
9/11 and he's made a great contribution
1:03:51
to our society and kept countless
1:03:54
innocent American citizens safe and I
1:03:58
wish that him and the president would
1:03:59
dial back the rhetoric towards each
1:04:01
other what do you think is CNN you know
1:04:05
they were rough on me I write about it
1:04:08
in the book where they were they're
1:04:09
still rough they made up a story we're
1:04:11
still rough on me but you know they have
1:04:14
a right to do that I believe in the
1:04:15
First Amendment I have no problem going
1:04:17
over there it's like being a Yankee in
1:04:19
Fenway Park
1:04:20
but I have no problem going over there
1:04:22
and articulating my view or my opinion
1:04:24
but yeah I mean they're there they're
1:04:27
not the president's favorite news
1:04:28
organization that's for sure
1:04:30
MSNBC probably a little fairer than CNBC
1:04:35
CNN believe it or not I think that their
1:04:37
coverage from like say nine o'clock to
1:04:40
7:00 is probably more fair more
1:04:42
straight-up news less editorial ization
1:04:45
even though it is slanted to the left
1:04:48
obviously the evening stuff is very
1:04:50
left-leaning but uh listen I mean that's
1:04:53
the business model now there's
1:04:54
left-leaning and right leaning outlets
1:04:57
what did you think of the MIT Romney
1:05:00
moment when he comes out and trashes
1:05:02
Trump with one of their really just
1:05:04
excoriating commentaries calling him a
1:05:08
criminal yeah more or less I thought
1:05:10
that was a mistake I suggested two mitts
1:05:13
body guy and chief of staff Spencer
1:05:16
Swick the day that he was making that
1:05:18
speech to please not make that speech
1:05:20
but I think that was a mistake and I
1:05:22
think that that's a you know MIT will go
1:05:24
on to win the Senate race in Utah and
1:05:27
hopefully he'll find a way to bridge
1:05:28
that gap and work closely with the
1:05:31
president there are two great guys but
1:05:32
man they've got very different
1:05:34
personalities I think that's me
1:05:36
overstating the obvious what do you
1:05:40
think you said that you follow a couple
1:05:42
of these economic cycles do you think
1:05:46
them right now the way the markets
1:05:47
acting also do a stock market thing I
1:05:49
used to write for the for Forbes and
1:05:51
Barron's and a number of other published
1:05:53
publications I'm I'm a into cycles yeah
1:05:56
do you think that the market right now
1:06:00
is at a top and it's kind of splashing
1:06:04
around up there or it's creating a kind
1:06:07
of a high bottom I think III think it's
1:06:12
more of a high bottom just because of
1:06:13
what I know of the economic stimulus and
1:06:15
the furthering of that and how that's
1:06:17
going to affect earnings I do think the
1:06:21
Fed will be forced to slow down their
1:06:23
rate rises as these interest sensitive
1:06:26
areas of the economy start to slow down
1:06:29
the Fed you'll start hearing from the
1:06:31
Fed that they're moving back to date
1:06:33
dependency as opposed to just quarterly
1:06:36
or monthly rate rises and so I meant to
1:06:39
say month quarterly rate rises and so so
1:06:42
to me I think we're at an interregnum in
1:06:46
a bull market I think the bull thesis is
1:06:48
still intact after all these years yeah
1:06:52
exactly it's eleven eleven it you know
1:06:55
remember these things don't die of old
1:06:56
age they die of deteriorating
1:06:59
fundamentals and so we are cheating
1:07:01
history your listeners probably know
1:07:02
this but it's worth repeating the
1:07:04
American economy goes through a
1:07:06
recession once every eight or so years
1:07:08
and so we're cheating history right now
1:07:12
we're in the eleven and a half year of
1:07:13
an expansion but I still think we have
1:07:15
some room to go because of the way the
1:07:17
tax stimulus is affecting our GDP it's
1:07:21
been a real pleasure to be on with you
1:07:22
though thank you you good questioner
1:07:24
well I want to thank you for being on
1:07:26
this interview we do this every so often
1:07:29
we put them together and as part of the
1:07:31
our show process we take a day off and
1:07:34
we put these interviews on and that's I
1:07:36
I read your book I thought was a book I
1:07:38
could easily recommend I think people
1:07:40
especially travelers you could read
1:07:41
probably read the book on a round-trip
1:07:43
flight that's what I was hoping for
1:07:45
exactly what I tried to create I tried
1:07:46
to create a Airport book where you're
1:07:49
going to your destination and returning
1:07:50
home you'll finish it and hopefully I've
1:07:52
left you with some honest insight into
1:07:54
what I saw at the White House but also
1:07:57
during the campaign yeah it was very
1:08:00
very entertaining and had a lot of good
1:08:02
chunks of irony and other screwy things
1:08:05
in there that the gossips out there
1:08:07
would love this book I think you're
1:08:08
gonna have a good time reading it I want
1:08:10
to thank you for being on and we'll talk
1:08:12
again maybe some time in New York you
1:08:14
can buy a cup of coffee after it exactly
1:08:17
come in and we'll well a little lament
1:08:19
the market together
1:08:20
god bless okay I've to see you soon
1:08:22
thanks
1:08:24
[Music]
1:08:25
- no agenda imagine all the people who
1:08:28
could do is I just want to say nice
1:08:42
David that was different I haven't heard
1:08:44
the mooch that way I like that a lot
1:08:45
that was good Tom Starkweather I was
1:08:47
just gonna ask you who set up the who
1:08:49
set it up for you because I was gonna
1:08:50
produce the show out good and this is
1:08:53
when I had on my screen my my skype
1:08:57
screen I had the picture of of Al Gore
1:09:00
with blood all over his face holding
1:09:02
like the Friday the 13th or did ya
1:09:10
interview and I start were there Tom I
1:09:14
think he had to he he tried to go a day
1:09:16
beforehand and they were giving him a
1:09:18
hassle like security clearances and all
1:09:21
kinds of weird stuff it wasn't easy
1:09:23
yeah well thanks to Tom for that and
1:09:25
thanks to Anthony that was good I like
1:09:27
that that was interesting so we don't
1:09:29
have any people to thank because on one
1:09:31
of these interview shows we don't we
1:09:32
can't we're carrying over all the
1:09:34
donations to the next Thursday show
1:09:35
right which of course we'll also have a
1:09:37
wrap-up of the festivities which are
1:09:39
taking place as we speak a wedding and
1:09:41
maybe some interviews at the wedding
1:09:50
you're bringing your zoom recorder bring
1:09:53
the zoom material oh god well make sure
1:10:01
you talk to Tiffany and Willow then yes
1:10:04
I will definitely yes Wow Zuma zuma so
1:10:11
not as soon now it's a zoom zoom want to
1:10:15
remind people that this show is also
1:10:17
requires support so if you can help us
1:10:20
to go to know it you will get a
1:10:23
newsletter but some people don't get
1:10:24
that
1:10:25
and Dvorak dot org slash na and you have
1:10:28
all the links there for donating yeah
1:10:30
and you know you can see how the value
1:10:32
network works we had Tom Starkweather
1:10:34
who we only knew from end of show makes
1:10:36
us all a sudden Tom
1:10:37
like available and producing producing
1:10:39
the tired interview segment with us in
1:10:42
in New York and I think he gets a kick
1:10:44
out of it as well and he has an actual
1:10:46
executive producer credit or like a big
1:10:49
one in fact as the executive producer
1:10:51
because you know we have nothing nothing
1:10:54
has a producer yes and the producer
1:10:56
exactly you're right exec and producer
1:10:59
he's the showrunner showrunner oh yeah
1:11:02
we should add that to his to his
1:11:04
presence showrunner Jonah yes move on to
1:11:07
cliff Stoll who I interviewed in person
1:11:10
at in at his house very an interesting
1:11:13
place in Oakland and here we go I don't
1:11:19
cliff on and off for a long time and he
1:11:22
used to do a weird pose I used to know
1:11:25
you for a long time still do know yeah I
1:11:30
think so yeah usually if one person he
1:11:32
knows another one for a long time the
1:11:33
other one it's transit a similar cliff
1:11:36
used to do these editorial put spots
1:11:40
where he would more or less just say get
1:11:43
off the computer and go outside and get
1:11:44
some fresh air and that was his message
1:11:47
and it went to his message every time he
1:11:49
gave an editorial and I think it's still
1:11:51
your message my I don't have any
1:11:55
messages any more than this is the
1:11:56
medium the message no I'm
1:11:58
my feeling is enjoyment of life having
1:12:02
something to do having something
1:12:03
worthwhile in your mind and worthwhile
1:12:06
around you you can get it in a lot of
1:12:08
places unfortunately there's a lot of
1:12:10
places that you can spin your wheels and
1:12:13
and avoid doing cool things or do what
1:12:18
feels really cool and neat but ends up
1:12:21
at the end of it all feeling well I'm
1:12:24
not sure I did anything that's my day
1:12:28
yeah yeah it's everybody's day now you
1:12:33
had you still give speeches occasionally
1:12:36
I saw I saw an old TED talk of yours
1:12:38
once I did it that talk yeah that's
1:12:40
silly
1:12:41
well you're jumping around on the stage
1:12:43
and your ideas don't give them a
1:12:46
standing target yeah well this is a good
1:12:48
comedians do this they walk back and
1:12:50
forth on the stage for
1:12:50
the reason that it keeps the keeps field
1:12:52
from falling asleep sure but but to me
1:12:56
it's also uh what did my father say if
1:13:01
they're going to throw tomatoes at you
1:13:02
make sure that usually you miss but but
1:13:05
when I went to the this TED talk I
1:13:08
thought oh I'll have an hour to talk so
1:13:11
that there's only 18 minutes that's
1:13:13
right I get there and the guy says oh
1:13:15
you've got 18 minutes I say yep but I've
1:13:17
outlined in hours fuck you says well
1:13:18
compress it down so that's just that
1:13:21
easy
1:13:21
oh yeah so I just said oh I'll keep the
1:13:24
same things I'll just talk really fast
1:13:25
which is pretty easy because one of the
1:13:28
very few things I learned in grad school
1:13:30
was talk fast and get out of there
1:13:33
before they can understand what you're
1:13:35
not saying that's a good experience it's
1:13:39
I never learned that but I can
1:13:42
understand it now let's go over some of
1:13:44
the things that you some of your ideals
1:13:46
one that I wanted to talk about and the
1:13:49
one or at the top of the list is
1:13:50
something we always talked about a
1:13:51
little while ago which is computers in
1:13:53
schools throw them out well I'm not sure
1:13:57
whether you should throw the school's
1:13:58
out or the computers out but throw one
1:14:00
of them out
1:14:01
explain yourself because people said
1:14:04
well you know the computers are what the
1:14:05
kids are gonna have to work with when
1:14:06
they get into business and they get in
1:14:09
the real life they're gonna have to
1:14:09
learn how to use these computer horse
1:14:11
and of course they're all I all I seem
1:14:13
using him for us to play games and
1:14:15
message but I would assume that he had a
1:14:17
good course and in how to do Google
1:14:20
search might not be a business or a
1:14:22
computer or is it that the nature of
1:14:26
computing especially commercialized
1:14:28
computing is that it becomes easier and
1:14:30
easier to get things done 15 years ago
1:14:34
oh we have to teach computing in school
1:14:36
so that kids won't let be left behind
1:14:38
no kids learn computing real easy the
1:14:43
hard stuff to learn how do you put
1:14:46
together a legible and understandable
1:14:50
sentence how do you write a how do you
1:14:54
write a page of prose that is reasonable
1:14:59
to get you say to put on your resume or
1:15:02
to get you into college or
1:15:04
or to get to get through your classes
1:15:07
next week my concern is not can kids use
1:15:13
computers my concern is can kids use
1:15:17
their minds it's we all know computer
1:15:24
skills go out of date real fast oh yeah
1:15:27
they'll try to go back and use a Windows
1:15:28
3.1 system and see how far you get the
1:15:32
language that you learned today
1:15:34
Python Haskell Oh in ten years it'll be
1:15:38
obsolete there'll be something new for
1:15:39
you to learn and the the same is true of
1:15:44
various applications every application
1:15:47
is evolving a few of them are static no
1:15:50
I there are some things that it's really
1:15:54
useful to know and I think these can and
1:16:00
should be taught in school for example
1:16:02
how to read for meaning how to write a
1:16:05
concise expository statement how to
1:16:09
write prose how to write how to put
1:16:13
together a mathematical argument how do
1:16:15
how logic works that that students very
1:16:25
few students graduate from college today
1:16:28
having read Shakespeare well which is
1:16:31
more important to figure out how
1:16:32
Microsoft formats words or her
1:16:35
Shakespeare should formats words I don't
1:16:37
know which is more important but I'm
1:16:40
astonished that the question isn't even
1:16:43
brought up and well lots of people spend
1:16:48
lots of times lots of time playing games
1:16:51
nope nothing wrong with it but we have
1:16:55
so much time in our life that can be
1:16:57
distributed in lots of different ways
1:16:59
and some of the cool ways that you can
1:17:01
spend your time is oh I got it God we'll
1:17:03
watch a movie tonight I got a visit sewn
1:17:07
so I've got to talk to somebody
1:17:08
I've got to play a game I've got a cook
1:17:11
I forget we have a finite amount of time
1:17:13
every day and of course in our life and
1:17:16
in the time that we spend
1:17:18
spinning around in an artificial world
1:17:22
is time that were not learning
1:17:26
challenging life skills and practicing
1:17:30
them
1:17:30
well obvious example for the past 2025
1:17:36
years there have been surveys on campus
1:17:39
of shyness psychologist at Stanford does
1:17:45
an annual survey asking people how shy
1:17:47
are you and they read it and normalize
1:17:50
it turns out that there's a great deal
1:17:53
of shyness and it's increasing you year
1:17:56
after year
1:17:57
well nothing implicitly wrong with this
1:18:00
but why are people more shy why are
1:18:03
people spending less time talking to one
1:18:06
another they're more afraid of talking
1:18:09
to one another
1:18:10
well it's because through their life
1:18:12
it's easier and far more welcoming to
1:18:16
interact with a silicon screen than it
1:18:22
is to interact with a real human being
1:18:25
it's hard to say oh yeah I'll just come
1:18:28
over here and say hi and hack around at
1:18:30
the end full around it's much easier to
1:18:33
say yo I'll go tight behind this tap
1:18:36
away on this tablet there's less
1:18:38
investment in local community today
1:18:42
where fifty a hundred years ago was
1:18:46
commonplace that people would volunteer
1:18:48
free time at churches red cross elk Elks
1:18:53
clubs things like this just volunteering
1:18:55
time at the hospital yeah today they do
1:18:59
not there's much you know there's a
1:19:02
several books one of which is called
1:19:03
Bowling Alone that points out that
1:19:07
bowling alleys are finding lots more
1:19:10
people bowling but fewer people joining
1:19:14
leagues it seems that people don't have
1:19:18
time to coordinate with others to see
1:19:20
them face to face but they still want to
1:19:23
sharpen their their bowling skills our
1:19:28
larger community
1:19:31
loses out when we when high when you
1:19:35
don't volunteer and put hours in meeting
1:19:39
people hacking around after shul after
1:19:43
church after fooling around after school
1:19:47
there's a sense of hey I'm really busy I
1:19:53
don't have time for that
1:19:55
well I'm really busy but still like how
1:19:59
busy our people be if you go outside and
1:20:02
I've made a collection of photos of
1:20:05
people who are just like this all the
1:20:07
time looking at their screen wherever
1:20:09
they go on this they go to a platform at
1:20:12
a rail station they're all there like
1:20:14
this and it's actually very picturesque
1:20:16
pictures because of that the comedic
1:20:19
nature of it to see a whole bunch of
1:20:20
people lined up not I mean the train
1:20:22
could come through with the big you know
1:20:24
big
1:20:24
buzzsaw and kill them all and no one
1:20:27
would notice it or they could put a
1:20:30
chain son just chopped off their hands
1:20:32
holding their cell phones it's a
1:20:37
fascinating problem in time
1:20:39
my thoughts are I'd rather be talking to
1:20:45
somebody than collecting messages and
1:20:49
reading email you believe there's an
1:20:51
addictive nature to this position piece
1:20:54
to this thing I mean and what Mars is
1:20:56
what's the model of the diction
1:20:57
essentially everyone it's hyper social I
1:21:00
mean you just went on about this
1:21:01
antisocial behavior but at the same time
1:21:04
it don't you think it's kind of hyper
1:21:05
social it be all plugged into 35 we
1:21:08
don't really know okay when somebody
1:21:12
friends me on Facebook are they my
1:21:15
friend you have a Facebook account no I
1:21:17
don't know I totally would somebody
1:21:18
friends you know yes I bla bla' friend
1:21:20
blah blah blah are they my friend is the
1:21:23
definition is my definition of friend
1:21:26
someone who's connected to me by way of
1:21:29
a social medium uh-huh my idea of a
1:21:32
friend is hey I've got an inner circle
1:21:35
of a half dozen people that if I'm
1:21:37
feeling down I can call him and talk
1:21:39
well if I'm hungry I can say hey let's
1:21:42
go for coffee and lunch
1:21:44
people that I can wander over to their
1:21:47
house with little or no warning and just
1:21:50
talk and then cut catch up on things
1:21:54
my definition of friend isn't to someone
1:21:57
who sends messages to me by way of a of
1:22:03
a widespread application there are many
1:22:06
many people who have thousands of
1:22:08
friends on Facebook probably many people
1:22:10
of tens of thousands of friends but if
1:22:13
one of these people stops them on the
1:22:15
street do they say oh how's your
1:22:17
daughter you know what you know is your
1:22:20
dad still sick are you you know can they
1:22:22
converse and have a heart-to-heart
1:22:25
conversation well that you putting it
1:22:28
another way go wow we won't we back off
1:22:31
from that concept and say to ourselves
1:22:33
we've redefined friendship and so for
1:22:35
friend is that defined as theirs so
1:22:38
there may be two two categories you have
1:22:40
the Facebook friend and you have a real
1:22:42
friend and do people realize that the
1:22:45
Facebook friends not is a foe friend or
1:22:47
do they do are they seriously thinking
1:22:49
these are real friends I know I I don't
1:22:52
know I have no experience in social
1:22:55
media I'm the wrong person to speak of
1:22:57
it I wish that there were more analysis
1:23:01
of it by those who are professionals
1:23:03
sociology just and I have been about
1:23:06
this forever I think that sociologists
1:23:09
are very happy to work academically and
1:23:13
they adheres them here's something that
1:23:16
screaming out calling analyze me why is
1:23:19
it that people say oh I've got 2,000
1:23:23
friends on Facebook I got and yet
1:23:25
they're going around sort of unhappy I
1:23:31
don't know I I'm a physicist I'm a
1:23:34
computer jock I'm a mathematician I'm
1:23:36
sure but it's earned you don't find any
1:23:43
any attraction of social media you're
1:23:45
not attracted to any aspect of it it's
1:23:47
like a Twitter account where you can
1:23:49
make snide comments to the public at
1:23:51
large to wish to make snide comments no
1:23:54
Snider's yeah
1:23:56
that's the only valuable thing you can
1:23:59
do on these what is it it's crackers to
1:24:04
slip the rahzar the drops key in snide
1:24:09
hi damn I remembered that right is that
1:24:13
an e coming yeah notes from Mad Magazine
1:24:16
of the 1959 Mary its crackers to slip or
1:24:19
rahzar the drop skin snide means I'm
1:24:22
it's foolish to bribe a policeman with
1:24:27
counterfeit money snide net counterfeit
1:24:30
money so what I'm getting is more what
1:24:39
email Twitter online communications is
1:24:45
fantastic for staying on top of things
1:24:48
but I want to get to the bottom of
1:24:51
things what I want to do is understand
1:24:55
things more deeply and that means not
1:25:00
being interrupt driven not being pushed
1:25:03
around but every notice that comes to me
1:25:06
but rather researching and learning and
1:25:11
working in a few small areas and
1:25:14
becoming as as direct as possible in a
1:25:17
small area and not try to keep up with a
1:25:22
thousand online friends more I'm and
1:25:28
this is not a critique of people who
1:25:31
spend a huge amount of time online or on
1:25:33
Facebook it's more what I find works for
1:25:37
me in my heart I want to be closer to my
1:25:42
wife I want to be closer to my kids I
1:25:44
want to be closer to my community my
1:25:48
neighborhood we're gonna be making plum
1:25:51
jam sharing it with the people next door
1:25:53
well I can't share my plum jam with
1:25:57
people who are on social media sorry
1:25:59
there's only about three dozen jars of
1:26:01
it and the first caller people live next
1:26:05
door helped me pick the plums
1:26:08
[Music]
1:26:09
Vivi's it's not like I'm saying this is
1:26:13
a a wrong thing to point your life at
1:26:17
it's more I'm saying for me and I
1:26:21
suspect for many though not all others
1:26:24
there's something lost if I spend a lot
1:26:28
of time poking around at a computer
1:26:31
poking around at a screen rather than
1:26:35
screwing around with friends with
1:26:39
relatives and and having depth with a
1:26:46
few people rather than shallowness with
1:26:48
a large number of people
1:26:50
Who am I to say well let's laugh at me
1:26:53
and say I'm all wrong it's all right
1:26:54
nobody says that because nobody knows
1:26:56
what's right eh
1:26:57
and I've never heard anybody defend
1:27:01
social media they just they just did
1:27:03
find it as a fun thing to do it for as a
1:27:06
sigh I don't know I here to be honest if
1:27:08
I don't have a Facebook account either
1:27:09
and so I've always baffled by the some
1:27:13
of the Facebook because it just kind of
1:27:15
stirs you up and it doesn't really
1:27:17
accomplish anything ten years ten years
1:27:18
ago I ended up on something called
1:27:21
LinkedIn what day doesn't go by that I
1:27:24
don't get notices saying XYZ wants to
1:27:27
connect to a LinkedIn oh yeah LinkedIn
1:27:29
and I'm I just have no idea what to do
1:27:34
with these things people from across the
1:27:37
globe want to connect with me as if I
1:27:40
have something to say or something
1:27:41
useful to help them with and I don't I
1:27:44
think you may be exaggerating what
1:27:46
LinkedIn is really did its purposes it's
1:27:50
to create kind of phone networks of
1:27:53
people who maybe could offer you work oh
1:27:55
I can offer nobody any work so you don't
1:28:00
need to be on LinkedIn yeah it's a I
1:28:04
just have concerns that well popping the
1:28:10
stack you're asking about schools my
1:28:13
feeling is the things that we should get
1:28:16
out of education are not how to use
1:28:19
computer
1:28:21
that's pretty easy in fact it's hard to
1:28:25
find a teenager who doesn't know how to
1:28:29
use Facebook who doesn't know how to
1:28:31
efficiently search on Google it's hard
1:28:33
to find a teenager who's bad at texting
1:28:37
they exist I'm sure but they're probably
1:28:39
pretty rare but find a teenager who can
1:28:44
stand up in front of 30 students and
1:28:48
recite a poem play the clarinet
1:28:52
explain how explain the importance of
1:28:57
Pericles in the Peloponnesian War how
1:28:59
his speech laid the groundwork for
1:29:03
Lincoln's Galesburg address you know
1:29:05
that's something that I'd hope at least
1:29:08
some of the better to better kids in
1:29:11
high school would be able to do and
1:29:14
would be a little bit nervous about it
1:29:16
but would be capable of doing yet if we
1:29:20
consider that the point of of schooling
1:29:26
is to teach you a trade well okay learn
1:29:32
C++ here here's how you use pointers and
1:29:36
here's how yeah they don't do that by
1:29:41
the way they don't teach kids how to you
1:29:43
know how to code and C++ they know to be
1:29:48
out well you know I don't know as much
1:29:50
as I should about but from what I can
1:29:52
tell this the computers are considered
1:29:55
ancillary to like a history course so
1:29:59
you can teach a little bit have you read
1:30:01
a book and then do a lot of research
1:30:02
online
1:30:05
suppose for a minute suppose suppose for
1:30:08
a minute I was an evil horrible terrible
1:30:13
human being it might be true um and my
1:30:15
idea was I want to wipe out curiosity I
1:30:19
want to get rid of curiosity well one
1:30:25
way to do that would be to say I'm gonna
1:30:27
lock people up and not let them near any
1:30:30
information I'm gonna keep the books
1:30:32
away from them keep theater net away
1:30:33
from them
1:30:34
make sure that they don't have access to
1:30:37
information well let get let get rid of
1:30:41
their curiosity hello
1:30:43
they'll be more curious than ever what's
1:30:46
out there
1:30:47
wait turn it around though if I want to
1:30:50
get rid of a kid's curiosity what if I
1:30:54
gave this kid a machine that answered
1:30:58
every question the kid came up with
1:31:01
correctly with you know in in a nice a
1:31:05
nice high res screen right doable doable
1:31:08
and it even has movies and videos to
1:31:11
shelter kid kid says you know how do
1:31:13
flowers grow or what why is the sky blue
1:31:16
and it comes up with a perfect answer
1:31:18
that would be a wonderful way to
1:31:21
eliminate curiosity because you never
1:31:25
experience the joy of doing an
1:31:29
experiment and figuring it out for
1:31:31
yourself all you have to do is ask that
1:31:34
question online and get a wonderful easy
1:31:40
answer right back to you if you want to
1:31:43
eliminate curiosity provide people with
1:31:47
facile immediate answers well what does
1:31:54
any of the search engines take your pick
1:31:57
what do they do they provide us with
1:31:59
facile easy quick answers to essentially
1:32:04
any question we ask what effective does
1:32:08
this have on students well seems to me
1:32:11
that it's a wonderful way to to throw a
1:32:17
wet blanket on our indigenous curiosity
1:32:21
that each of us is born with why should
1:32:25
i why should i explore the world and ask
1:32:27
questions if i want to know what what
1:32:29
life is like in Songhai china but just
1:32:32
to ask this computer you can be on a
1:32:36
train anywhere in the world and you see
1:32:39
the same kids that you're talking about
1:32:41
instead of looking out the window at the
1:32:43
crazy sights yes
1:32:45
you've seen this yeah it's instead of
1:32:48
instead of looking around saying wow I'm
1:32:52
looking at some nasturtium flowers Oh
1:32:54
what do they do at night do they close
1:32:56
up or stay open oh no I'm gonna look at
1:32:59
a screen and stay up on social media or
1:33:02
I'll be asking questions are trying to
1:33:05
copy and paste together some some report
1:33:09
my point is not that Oh
1:33:12
computers are harmful rather my point is
1:33:16
that we should be asking ourselves what
1:33:20
is it about an interconnected world that
1:33:24
gives us the heebie-jeebies and one of
1:33:27
my points has when I taught so I taught
1:33:31
eighth grade about nine ten years ago in
1:33:34
teaching eighth graders there were lots
1:33:37
of kids who were fantastic online in
1:33:40
texting it was surprisingly difficult to
1:33:44
get them to just do ordinary curious
1:33:47
stuff stuff that do he's great they were
1:33:52
perfectly happy not to be doing
1:33:55
athletics but sitting on the side
1:33:57
texting they were it was sad to be it's
1:34:02
right it's always been pathetic to me
1:34:04
but sad is a good way of putting it
1:34:06
I'm not what I'm not saying is these
1:34:10
kids are turning out all wrong rather
1:34:13
I'm asking could it be that our love
1:34:16
affair with a high tech information
1:34:20
system may be leading our kids and
1:34:24
adults into rather dreary unhappy lives
1:34:29
don't know I hope not but might be
1:34:34
that's not you asked I think the I don't
1:34:37
know what I asked I think they are I
1:34:39
think the unhappy life is ahead so you
1:34:45
see too much evidence of your kids being
1:34:46
suicidal for you know why is a 17 year
1:34:49
olds no good but of course it but we're
1:34:51
also drugging these kids seriously great
1:34:53
deal okay
1:34:57
nobody
1:34:59
has it easy between age three at age 31
1:35:04
I say nobody has it easy at any age it's
1:35:07
real tough to be a teenager I don't know
1:35:10
whether teenage suicides are remaining
1:35:13
the same going up or going down it
1:35:16
saddens me deeply to hear of any suicide
1:35:21
at any age because people have so much
1:35:26
to contribute to this very mundane
1:35:29
dreary world and the only way the world
1:35:32
becomes more interesting and a lively or
1:35:35
more wonderful place is by people doing
1:35:38
things and making it a better place and
1:35:42
to the person who say uh what if I have
1:35:45
to live for I've screwed up or there's
1:35:47
things are boring I can look around say
1:35:50
there's so much to learn there's so many
1:35:54
cool things going on here there's so
1:35:57
much to do with your hands with your
1:35:58
heart with your head and yet some people
1:36:03
let go again
1:36:05
I find it very sad and I mean my concern
1:36:10
is goes to something you said before a
1:36:13
few minutes ago about the word snide
1:36:16
it's easy to be snide it's easy to be
1:36:20
sarcastic but that is something to do
1:36:22
oh of course it's something to do be
1:36:24
critical be mean yeah it's easy to say
1:36:30
mean hurtful things to a classmate just
1:36:34
to it's even easier to say a mean
1:36:36
hurtful thing out of posting on some yes
1:36:40
some bored and of course and people I
1:36:43
specialize in it oh yeah people work
1:36:45
hard to troll around and you know
1:36:47
they're the whole institutions in st.
1:36:49
Petersburg where they train people to do
1:36:52
this and at the same time I feel you
1:36:57
know the community I want to be a part
1:37:00
of yeah it has some sarcasm in it yeah
1:37:03
there's there's people who scoff but on
1:37:07
the whole it's largely self supportive
1:37:10
and
1:37:12
friendship is oftentimes built upon
1:37:14
mutual interests and mutual support
1:37:18
rather than oh I'm more snide than you
1:37:21
are I can make a a flashier piece of of
1:37:26
sarcasm than you can not I don't know
1:37:31
where I'm talking myself into this Oh
1:37:33
Porter I'm sure that people of another
1:37:36
corner oh yeah but I'm I'm still but I
1:37:39
think you're right generally speaking
1:37:40
it's everything you say is accurate it's
1:37:43
like there is the situation as it now
1:37:46
exists is terrible and then they want to
1:37:48
move on to things and then when the
1:37:50
other issues crop up based on technology
1:37:53
you end up with people advocating for
1:37:56
example voting over the internet which
1:38:00
seems to me to be just fraud with
1:38:02
insanity yeah yeah I mean there's
1:38:04
there's lots of problems with online
1:38:07
voting not least of which is identity
1:38:09
but also is the implicit lack of
1:38:15
temporal thought oh I'm going to
1:38:18
actually think about this for a long
1:38:20
time rather than I'm going to click on a
1:38:22
checkbox how do you feel about this
1:38:24
check here click here oops
1:38:26
Oh ten minutes later maybe not there's a
1:38:29
certain seriousness that happens when
1:38:32
you actually vote walk to a voting booth
1:38:34
and that you don't that I don't get at
1:38:38
least whoa hey well I get to a website
1:38:41
says what's your opinion I cakes y'see
1:38:43
Oh
1:38:43
Survey Monkey wants to know feel how
1:38:47
long do you cut your shoelaces
1:38:50
how often are you online I'm a daily
1:38:55
basis do you have a computer in the
1:38:56
house yeah I have one downstairs there's
1:38:59
one downstairs
1:38:59
ie do you get on it do you get stuck on
1:39:03
it like most people you get the Lord's
1:39:05
call heavily under alcohol I have a
1:39:08
little business making and selling glass
1:39:11
work
1:39:11
yes Klein pumps and I'm in
1:39:14
communications with mathematicians who
1:39:15
like to send and receive email I answer
1:39:20
a bunch of email several probably a
1:39:22
couple hours a day
1:39:25
outside of that well what did I do this
1:39:29
morning I unpacked a bunch of glassware
1:39:30
I cut some tiles with a diamond saw I
1:39:36
putting together a kitchen counter youth
1:39:39
using using some kind of Penrose tiles
1:39:43
at so I'm and last night I was up till
1:39:49
10 o'clock with my wife or both reading
1:39:51
books from 7:00 till 10:00 so I try to
1:39:56
keep my computing in my screen time is
1:40:04
11:00 in the morning till over lunch
1:40:07
till 2:00 in the afternoon 2 3 and let's
1:40:11
really try to minimize it a day to me a
1:40:15
successful day is a day that I don't get
1:40:18
in a car and I don't see a screen that
1:40:20
to me is a completely successful date
1:40:23
now if you have you ever been says you
1:40:27
do a goat you you're not computer
1:40:29
illiterate by enemies do you is there
1:40:31
anything online everything's online now
1:40:34
or no no no no no no no no no no I
1:40:39
planted some tomato plants two weeks ago
1:40:42
300 line no okay well you got a kink
1:40:44
some plum juice I'm just saying not
1:40:46
online right look this is this is class
1:40:51
yeah and it's done it's not for sale
1:40:54
online it's what I meant what I meant by
1:41:00
that on the computer specifically not in
1:41:03
the world in general most things are
1:41:05
online and have you ever been surprised
1:41:07
by anything you've seen in the last few
1:41:08
years where you go oh my god this is
1:41:10
really great I didn't think I'd ever see
1:41:13
anything like this before and here it is
1:41:15
I've seen an enormous number of things
1:41:17
online that I open my eyes say wow this
1:41:21
is impressive
1:41:22
that this is available to me online is
1:41:25
it's close to magic at the same time for
1:41:30
all the flash for all the html5 for all
1:41:35
the glitz and astonishing
1:41:38
websites I don't think I've ever seen a
1:41:41
website or really anything online that
1:41:45
I'd call caring kind supportive deeply
1:41:52
touching maybe it's not possible oh the
1:41:57
things that move me most deeply for like
1:42:04
the difference between seeing a child
1:42:08
grow up in your home and become an adult
1:42:11
well there are billions of photos of
1:42:14
people growing up and becoming an adult
1:42:16
online there's nothing like the
1:42:19
experience of DISA's yes Herot of course
1:42:23
and there's millions of websites that
1:42:27
tell you how to be a parent too but but
1:42:30
inevitably you'll learn yourself and the
1:42:33
advice that you get online is worth
1:42:36
every penny that you pay for it it's a
1:42:39
yeah I've seen plenty online that have
1:42:41
that's opened my eyes and what I don't
1:42:45
go around saying is wow if only science
1:42:50
people or math people had this available
1:42:53
to them 200 years ago think of what they
1:42:56
could have done nah when I see what
1:42:59
people like Gauss what Einstein looked
1:43:03
Maxwell what Newton did they were
1:43:06
phenomenally constrained with us with an
1:43:11
incredibly primitive tools yet with
1:43:14
those primitive tools they were forced
1:43:17
to be creative today we have extremely
1:43:21
high quality digital tools and as a
1:43:25
result we needn't be creative what do I
1:43:29
mean by that it could be a minute to
1:43:33
think this one out when I was a kid in
1:43:35
art class class was sort of divided into
1:43:39
two those people who could draw a tree
1:43:41
that looked right and those who like me
1:43:44
couldn't draw tree I couldn't draw a
1:43:46
tree to look at it stared and didn't
1:43:48
look like a tree and the art teacher
1:43:50
said oh you know
1:43:51
way of discarding us we were the
1:43:54
creative ones and took a while for me to
1:43:57
realize that creativity is the inability
1:44:01
to copy those who were able to look at a
1:44:05
picture and make a copy of that they got
1:44:08
along well in this art class those of us
1:44:11
who just couldn't copy no matter how we
1:44:15
tried we couldn't copy we're at the
1:44:17
severe disadvantage we were the ones who
1:44:19
are called creative you don't think that
1:44:21
was just a disparaging of course it was
1:44:23
disparage ugh oh well certainly you
1:44:26
should have been there through my life
1:44:28
I've realized that creativity that
1:44:32
institutions whether they're schools
1:44:34
businesses institutions don't value
1:44:40
creativity they value the ability to get
1:44:43
along and fit in properly you know the
1:44:45
square peg in a square hole creativity
1:44:48
is rarely valued I want some moving drop
1:44:51
drop the way it looks over there just
1:44:53
copy that well the one thing that you
1:44:56
find across the board in computing is
1:44:59
copy and paste it's on it's built into
1:45:03
every operating system it's the most
1:45:05
fundamental levels copy and paste well
1:45:08
to me that says it's the nature of deep
1:45:14
down computing that it encourages
1:45:17
working within a system that's built by
1:45:22
you know that fits into OS X or Linux or
1:45:26
UNIX or Core or Microsoft operating
1:45:30
system yet making photocopies or
1:45:34
duplicating words or duplicating images
1:45:39
sort of tells me this isn't a very
1:45:41
creative process if it's creativity that
1:45:44
I want I think I'd rather see somebody
1:45:47
use their hands or get away from the
1:45:51
screen maybe I'm all wrong about this
1:45:55
well there's lots of creative people who
1:45:58
are online no doubt there's lots of
1:46:01
creative efforts but often times
1:46:05
it's the tools push us towards oh I'll
1:46:12
just copy it out if you're slightly
1:46:13
rewrite it and paste it over there well
1:46:16
looks like my work yeah good enough I
1:46:17
wish someone smarter than me would
1:46:20
explore what do we mean by creativity in
1:46:26
a digital domain hmm not just oh that's
1:46:30
a really creative things that I see
1:46:31
online but rather what I mean
1:46:34
like you I've sat through so many
1:46:37
horrible PowerPoint talks I've given
1:46:40
them yeah I mean that's just what a
1:46:42
fantastic way to poison a talk use
1:46:47
PowerPoint so refreshing so wonderful to
1:46:50
hear somebody do a talk entirely improv
1:46:54
you know without you know without using
1:46:57
a projector without using a computer
1:46:59
without being organized in advance just
1:47:01
saying hey I'm gonna talk about pursuit
1:47:04
and which you've done no of course we
1:47:07
all have well that's a that's the nature
1:47:10
of doing public speech to come up with
1:47:13
something on the fly I don't want to be
1:47:16
pre-programmed that's what I didn't
1:47:18
bring a bunch of questions for you if
1:47:19
you haven't noticed well that's that's
1:47:22
the nature of you I like you don't
1:47:24
pretty come on I do know I do yes I can
1:47:29
do it I could actually have questions
1:47:31
down I go through them put it let me
1:47:32
throw a wet blanket on you hold on if
1:47:34
you're gonna throw what blank I get get
1:47:36
some more Tucker yeah so I I know for me
1:47:39
doing a talk its improvisational
1:47:42
performance
1:47:42
I like well actually where we do our
1:47:45
podcast is all its improv is yes yeah
1:47:48
yeah yeah but let's talk about
1:47:50
everything betroth a wet blanket because
1:47:53
I want to hear the reason I'm gonna do
1:47:55
the wet blanket is because I want to
1:47:56
hear your analysis of it sure
1:47:59
early on in the days when you were more
1:48:01
of a prognosticator pundit you made the
1:48:04
prediction that ecommerce is never gonna
1:48:06
go anywhere and it's just a big joke
1:48:08
meteorolo course so it's wrong you were
1:48:11
wrong but can you analyze why you were
1:48:14
wrong I was invited to
1:48:17
a talk on ecommerce actually friends by
1:48:24
now sitting around talking at the time
1:48:26
what you could get online or essentially
1:48:27
magazine subscriptions I thought shit no
1:48:31
way and my investors ironic oh yeah of
1:48:34
course um
1:48:37
today of course magazine subscriptions
1:48:39
what's a magazine um what's a rather
1:48:44
what I felt at the time was the richness
1:48:48
of going to a store retail shop couldn't
1:48:53
be matched by things online still get uh
1:48:55
uh I felt that that was far more
1:48:58
important than it actually turned out to
1:49:01
be people are perfectly happy saying
1:49:04
I'll order this I'll click on this and
1:49:06
it'll be delivered to me and I'll have
1:49:07
the thing without the experience of
1:49:09
going to the start for me personally I
1:49:12
felt then and unfortunately I still do
1:49:16
feel now that purchasing and shopping
1:49:19
should be a an extension of one's
1:49:22
persona and shouldn't simply be picking
1:49:25
things from a menu in the sense that my
1:49:28
feeling is if shopping means acquisition
1:49:32
and acquiring stuff buying something
1:49:38
just by simply clicking on I want that I
1:49:40
want this I want this other thing click
1:49:42
on it pay for and to get the stuff to me
1:49:45
that's uh it feels shallow compared to
1:49:50
Oh getting something in supporting the
1:49:55
small business or the bookstore that
1:49:58
provides it yeah and I realized now that
1:50:03
this mental image that I had then may
1:50:06
very well have applied to me but it sure
1:50:08
didn't apply to very many other people
1:50:11
there are lots of people for whom oh I
1:50:14
don't want to go to a grocery store II
1:50:18
the rather have it delivered I don't
1:50:20
want to meet the person
1:50:21
well this raised you back to your
1:50:23
earlier discussion about the antisocial
1:50:25
behavior people are on Leno
1:50:27
yeah no I see I have gosh I have
1:50:32
discussed with people the fact that they
1:50:35
don't like to go to the store the